Lesson 24: Who needs to land short anyway
07/26/2007 Filed in: Flying
Thursday - 7/26/07
Today CFI1 and I get up bright and early and immediately head to the Murfreesboro airport (KMBT). On a day with good visibility, you can spot the runway almost immediately after liftoff, so there's little chance of becoming lost.
I dialup the AWOS and figure out which runway to use. I'll have to overfly the field and do a big 270 turn to the right to enter the 45 for downwind. I'm still a smidge high on the 45, but nothing spectacularly bad.
My landings are all pretty good except that my short field landing can in no way be classified as "short".
Me: How about you demo a short-field for me.
CFI1: Ok.
So he gives me a demo, which helped a little, but I still just don't get how you keep this little airplane from floating. Additionally, I'm aiming for the numbers and I'm also scared to death of touching down early and nosing over on the start of the asphalt. Avemco would definitely frown upon that.
I try a few more, a couple of which might have been within PTS under the gaze of a rather liberal DE.
After that, it's your general checkride prep with reviews of stalls and steep turns. The stalls were fine, but the steep turns were spectacularly shitty. Most annoyingly, this is after I practiced them while solo last week. It all sounded something like this.
CFI1: Ok, steep turn to the left...
CFI1: Bright the nose up... up... up, try shallower and nose up, too shallow, up, up, up
Me: <thinking> F***!!!
The one to the right was just as bad. Honestly, I think a big part of it was that CFI1 gave me different visual references on the airplane to use while turning. I was using other points the other day and it worked for me. I think I'll go back to that on our next practice. Moral: Don't fix what aint broke.
Back to Smryna for some uninteresting pattern work and then shutdown. During our debrief...
CFI1: I'll call the DE today and shedule your checkride.
Me: <gulp>
CFI1: I think you're ready.
I disagree. Given enough practice before the ride, I think I can *be* ready, but I'm not ready today.
In the office CFI1 bestows upon me my first "Airport within 25nm" endorsement for KMBT.
Guy in office: You should go there about 1pm. Pretty much the whole fleet is up at that time.
Me: Tons of traffic in the pattern?
Guy: 6-8 planes probably.
Me: I think I'll pass.
As it turns out, however, the airplane is open immediately after my lesson. Since it's a long drive to Smyrna, I decide to take advantage and get in some PIC time.
I actually had no intention of going back to Murfreesboro today, but as I was practicing, I found myself close enough that I could not resist exercising my new privileges.
I announce I'm entering the 45 for downwind on the runway and hear the following from another aircraft:
AC: [callsign] is turning downwind for 18. AC on the 45, what's your position.
Somehow in getting setup for this 45, I've lost the runway. Because I'm really smart. I still cannot see it at this point, so...
Me: Good question. I'm looking for the runway now.
After thinking about it for half a second longer.
Me: You guys go ahead, I'm going to do a 360 out here and let you by.
AC: Ok, thanks.
I never did see that dude.
So I climbed back up and overflew the field, found that pesky runway and came back for a landing or two before heading back to Smyrna for pattern work. The bad news is that my short field landings did not miraculously improve. The good news is that I'm considerably more consistent on all my other landings.
Logged: 1.3 dual, 1.6 PIC
Comments
soulie13
Senior Member
Registered: Feb 2006
Location: KHEF
Posts: 391
Well, I have no doubt the checkride is done and our intrepid hero is out shopping for his DA40. However, if not, from one DA20 pilot to another...
Short fields - Come in slow. With full flaps, stall speed is right aroun 40 KIAS. I do short fields at ~52 kias on final. I aim two stripes up the runway, with wheels down at the 500 ft stripes on the runway. I also flair a little more authoritatively, instead of the short creep I usually do. Then it's flaps out the second those wheels kiss pavement. The landing should be firm. Really firm.
__________________
PP-ASEL
5/22/2007
nathan42100
Student Pilot-Lesson 4
Registered: Jul 2007
Location: KHPN
Posts: 178
Dont they recommend that you keep the flaps in until you are off the runway for the added drag to slow you down?
Brian_TII
Member
Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 47
Not for a short field landing. The flaps add some lift. Going flaps up helps keep the weight on the tires to prevent skidding in a short field landing. Basically if you're trying to stop the aircraft ASAP, it's flaps up and hard on the brakes while applying full back pressure. You want as much weight on the mains as possible.
nathan42100
Student Pilot-Lesson 4
Registered: Jul 2007
Location: KHPN
Posts: 178
Now it makes sense.
Sysvr4
Senior Member
Registered: May 2007
Location: KMQY
Posts: 174
Originally posted by soulie13
Short fields - Come in slow. With full flaps, stall speed is right aroun 40 KIAS. I do short fields at ~52 kias on final. I aim two stripes up the runway, with wheels down at the 500 ft stripes on the runway. I also flair a little more authoritatively, instead of the short creep I usually do. Then it's flaps out the second those wheels kiss pavement. The landing should be firm. Really firm.
You hit on a bunch of really helpful points there. Stall speed with full flaps is 34 in our katana. I was told to bring it in at 55. I think 52 would give a steeper descent, but do you have enough speed for a decent flare at that speed?
As for the aiming point, you're right. Sus_pilot brought this up to me (btw, sus, your pm box is full!), and I'll be writing about that in a subsequent lesson.
Now for the bringing up the flaps thing... that one's new to me. None of my CFIs ever mentioned that, so I'll have to ask. Thanks for bringing it up...
Jeff
hg
Member
Registered: Mar 2006
Location: FME
Posts: 36
Originally posted by Sysvr4
You hit on a bunch of really helpful points there. Stall speed with full flaps is 34 in our katana. I was told to bring it in at 55. I think 52 would give a steeper descent, but do you have enough speed for a decent flare at that speed?
The thing is, you don't really want a decent flare. You just want to get the nosewheel up (like soulie said, with a more "authoritative" flair) so you're touching down on the mains, and that's it. At that point your airspeed should be low enough that you shouldn't have any lift left, and you'll be on the ground without any floating. Firm landings are ok on short field landings, the important thing is the touchdown point.
Does the POH have an approach speed listed for short field landings?
rjh
Member
Registered: Jun 2007
Location: KC
Posts: 70
Originally posted by Sysvr4
You hit on a bunch of really helpful points there. Stall speed with full flaps is 34 in our katana. I was told to bring it in at 55. I think 52 would give a steeper descent, but do you have enough speed for a decent flare at that speed?
Jeff
I think you should talk to your CFI about your approach speed on your short field landings. With the numbers you give (55/34), you are at 1.6 VSO. There will be no way to stop from floating at that speed.
soulie13
Senior Member
Registered: Feb 2006
Location: KHEF
Posts: 391
Also remember, the speeds used in the POH are usually for max gross weight. The lighter you are, the slower you can bring it in.
One more - I look at the flair as nothing more than something that 1) gets rid of the rest of my speed and 2) Keeps the nosewheel up. By coming in slower, you have less speed to bleed off. By flairing more authoritatively(I want to say "higher", but don't want to give the visual of yanking back and having a tail strike), you have a higher angle of attack, and what speed you do have goes faster.
I still make sure I do a roundout, but I'm already a little slower than usual. This may be just me, but as long as I'm still thinking of things in pieces(short final, roundout, flair) I'm good. YMMV.
__________________
PP-ASEL
5/22/2007
Jeff S KDTW
Patent Pending
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: Flying at Mach 0.30
Posts: 7836
Originally posted by Sysvr4
Now for the bringing up the flaps thing... that one's new to me. None of my CFIs ever mentioned that, so I'll have to ask. Thanks for bringing it up...
That is a technique I would not endorse. As you fly more complex planes, you learn there is no reason to retract the flaps immediately at touchdown--one day you'll be surprised when the gear retracts for some reason.
Most authoritative sources I've read/heard even promote the do-not-touch-anything-until-you-are-clear-of-the-runway-and-stopped mantra.
microcuts
Member
Registered: Aug 2006
Location:
Posts: 38
Originally posted by Jeff S KDTW
That is a technique I would not endorse. As you fly more complex planes, you learn there is no reason to retract the flaps immediately at touchdown--one day you'll be surprised when the gear retracts for some reason.
Most authoritative sources I've read/heard even promote the do-not-touch-anything-until-you-are-clear-of-the-runway-and-stopped mantra.
I totally agree. I learned this technique with a C-172 for short fields.. but during my Commercial Multi checkride on my short field I went for the flaps after landing and the examiner went into a lecture saying that ISN'T a good idea. In the mental state that your in during landing (intense) you might reach for the gear on accident. Just an idea.. And your POH should have a published Short-Field Approach speed that you can go off of for the Katana
Today CFI1 and I get up bright and early and immediately head to the Murfreesboro airport (KMBT). On a day with good visibility, you can spot the runway almost immediately after liftoff, so there's little chance of becoming lost.
I dialup the AWOS and figure out which runway to use. I'll have to overfly the field and do a big 270 turn to the right to enter the 45 for downwind. I'm still a smidge high on the 45, but nothing spectacularly bad.
My landings are all pretty good except that my short field landing can in no way be classified as "short".
Me: How about you demo a short-field for me.
CFI1: Ok.
So he gives me a demo, which helped a little, but I still just don't get how you keep this little airplane from floating. Additionally, I'm aiming for the numbers and I'm also scared to death of touching down early and nosing over on the start of the asphalt. Avemco would definitely frown upon that.
I try a few more, a couple of which might have been within PTS under the gaze of a rather liberal DE.
After that, it's your general checkride prep with reviews of stalls and steep turns. The stalls were fine, but the steep turns were spectacularly shitty. Most annoyingly, this is after I practiced them while solo last week. It all sounded something like this.
CFI1: Ok, steep turn to the left...
CFI1: Bright the nose up... up... up, try shallower and nose up, too shallow, up, up, up
Me: <thinking> F***!!!
The one to the right was just as bad. Honestly, I think a big part of it was that CFI1 gave me different visual references on the airplane to use while turning. I was using other points the other day and it worked for me. I think I'll go back to that on our next practice. Moral: Don't fix what aint broke.
Back to Smryna for some uninteresting pattern work and then shutdown. During our debrief...
CFI1: I'll call the DE today and shedule your checkride.
Me: <gulp>
CFI1: I think you're ready.
I disagree. Given enough practice before the ride, I think I can *be* ready, but I'm not ready today.
In the office CFI1 bestows upon me my first "Airport within 25nm" endorsement for KMBT.
Guy in office: You should go there about 1pm. Pretty much the whole fleet is up at that time.
Me: Tons of traffic in the pattern?
Guy: 6-8 planes probably.
Me: I think I'll pass.
As it turns out, however, the airplane is open immediately after my lesson. Since it's a long drive to Smyrna, I decide to take advantage and get in some PIC time.
I actually had no intention of going back to Murfreesboro today, but as I was practicing, I found myself close enough that I could not resist exercising my new privileges.
I announce I'm entering the 45 for downwind on the runway and hear the following from another aircraft:
AC: [callsign] is turning downwind for 18. AC on the 45, what's your position.
Somehow in getting setup for this 45, I've lost the runway. Because I'm really smart. I still cannot see it at this point, so...
Me: Good question. I'm looking for the runway now.
After thinking about it for half a second longer.
Me: You guys go ahead, I'm going to do a 360 out here and let you by.
AC: Ok, thanks.
I never did see that dude.
So I climbed back up and overflew the field, found that pesky runway and came back for a landing or two before heading back to Smyrna for pattern work. The bad news is that my short field landings did not miraculously improve. The good news is that I'm considerably more consistent on all my other landings.
Logged: 1.3 dual, 1.6 PIC
Comments
soulie13
Senior Member
Registered: Feb 2006
Location: KHEF
Posts: 391
Well, I have no doubt the checkride is done and our intrepid hero is out shopping for his DA40. However, if not, from one DA20 pilot to another...
Short fields - Come in slow. With full flaps, stall speed is right aroun 40 KIAS. I do short fields at ~52 kias on final. I aim two stripes up the runway, with wheels down at the 500 ft stripes on the runway. I also flair a little more authoritatively, instead of the short creep I usually do. Then it's flaps out the second those wheels kiss pavement. The landing should be firm. Really firm.
__________________
PP-ASEL
5/22/2007
nathan42100
Student Pilot-Lesson 4
Registered: Jul 2007
Location: KHPN
Posts: 178
Dont they recommend that you keep the flaps in until you are off the runway for the added drag to slow you down?
Brian_TII
Member
Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 47
Not for a short field landing. The flaps add some lift. Going flaps up helps keep the weight on the tires to prevent skidding in a short field landing. Basically if you're trying to stop the aircraft ASAP, it's flaps up and hard on the brakes while applying full back pressure. You want as much weight on the mains as possible.
nathan42100
Student Pilot-Lesson 4
Registered: Jul 2007
Location: KHPN
Posts: 178
Now it makes sense.
Sysvr4
Senior Member
Registered: May 2007
Location: KMQY
Posts: 174
Originally posted by soulie13
Short fields - Come in slow. With full flaps, stall speed is right aroun 40 KIAS. I do short fields at ~52 kias on final. I aim two stripes up the runway, with wheels down at the 500 ft stripes on the runway. I also flair a little more authoritatively, instead of the short creep I usually do. Then it's flaps out the second those wheels kiss pavement. The landing should be firm. Really firm.
You hit on a bunch of really helpful points there. Stall speed with full flaps is 34 in our katana. I was told to bring it in at 55. I think 52 would give a steeper descent, but do you have enough speed for a decent flare at that speed?
As for the aiming point, you're right. Sus_pilot brought this up to me (btw, sus, your pm box is full!), and I'll be writing about that in a subsequent lesson.
Now for the bringing up the flaps thing... that one's new to me. None of my CFIs ever mentioned that, so I'll have to ask. Thanks for bringing it up...
Jeff
hg
Member
Registered: Mar 2006
Location: FME
Posts: 36
Originally posted by Sysvr4
You hit on a bunch of really helpful points there. Stall speed with full flaps is 34 in our katana. I was told to bring it in at 55. I think 52 would give a steeper descent, but do you have enough speed for a decent flare at that speed?
The thing is, you don't really want a decent flare. You just want to get the nosewheel up (like soulie said, with a more "authoritative" flair) so you're touching down on the mains, and that's it. At that point your airspeed should be low enough that you shouldn't have any lift left, and you'll be on the ground without any floating. Firm landings are ok on short field landings, the important thing is the touchdown point.
Does the POH have an approach speed listed for short field landings?
rjh
Member
Registered: Jun 2007
Location: KC
Posts: 70
Originally posted by Sysvr4
You hit on a bunch of really helpful points there. Stall speed with full flaps is 34 in our katana. I was told to bring it in at 55. I think 52 would give a steeper descent, but do you have enough speed for a decent flare at that speed?
Jeff
I think you should talk to your CFI about your approach speed on your short field landings. With the numbers you give (55/34), you are at 1.6 VSO. There will be no way to stop from floating at that speed.
soulie13
Senior Member
Registered: Feb 2006
Location: KHEF
Posts: 391
Also remember, the speeds used in the POH are usually for max gross weight. The lighter you are, the slower you can bring it in.
One more - I look at the flair as nothing more than something that 1) gets rid of the rest of my speed and 2) Keeps the nosewheel up. By coming in slower, you have less speed to bleed off. By flairing more authoritatively(I want to say "higher", but don't want to give the visual of yanking back and having a tail strike), you have a higher angle of attack, and what speed you do have goes faster.
I still make sure I do a roundout, but I'm already a little slower than usual. This may be just me, but as long as I'm still thinking of things in pieces(short final, roundout, flair) I'm good. YMMV.
__________________
PP-ASEL
5/22/2007
Jeff S KDTW
Patent Pending
Registered: Jan 2003
Location: Flying at Mach 0.30
Posts: 7836
Originally posted by Sysvr4
Now for the bringing up the flaps thing... that one's new to me. None of my CFIs ever mentioned that, so I'll have to ask. Thanks for bringing it up...
That is a technique I would not endorse. As you fly more complex planes, you learn there is no reason to retract the flaps immediately at touchdown--one day you'll be surprised when the gear retracts for some reason.
Most authoritative sources I've read/heard even promote the do-not-touch-anything-until-you-are-clear-of-the-runway-and-stopped mantra.
microcuts
Member
Registered: Aug 2006
Location:
Posts: 38
Originally posted by Jeff S KDTW
That is a technique I would not endorse. As you fly more complex planes, you learn there is no reason to retract the flaps immediately at touchdown--one day you'll be surprised when the gear retracts for some reason.
Most authoritative sources I've read/heard even promote the do-not-touch-anything-until-you-are-clear-of-the-runway-and-stopped mantra.
I totally agree. I learned this technique with a C-172 for short fields.. but during my Commercial Multi checkride on my short field I went for the flaps after landing and the examiner went into a lecture saying that ISN'T a good idea. In the mental state that your in during landing (intense) you might reach for the gear on accident. Just an idea.. And your POH should have a published Short-Field Approach speed that you can go off of for the Katana